Here's the beginning of his post:
Do Catholics Pray to Mary?
The answer is yes, they do; and it is wrong! There is absolutely no justification for it in the word of God.
Catholics bring various excuses to justify their cult of Mary worship. One of them is to say that prayer is not the same as worship. They say that they pray to her, but don’t worship her. Unfortunately, it does not work that way. Prayer is an act of worship.
Now anyone who reads this and has just half a wit can see that he is making a leap of logic, and that it is he – not us Catholics -- who tries to justify that leap. The leap of logic is this: First, he says we have to justify prayer to Mary. Second, he says that we have to justify worship of Mary. "Wait a second, which one are we talking about?" we want to ask, and so he justifies that leap by qualifying prayer as an act of worship.
But prayer is not necessarily an act of worship, that's where he goes wrong. You can be worshiping in prayer, but, biblically speaking, that's not the only way to pray, as I will demonstrate further down. But let's tackle this first: suppose for a moment that there is non-worshipful prayer, and there is worshipful prayer. If Catholics pray to Mary in a non-worshipful sense, then Zerinus is wrong to categorize the prayer offered to Mary as “an act of worship.”
Now let's look at his reasons for supposing that prayer is always an act of worship.
When we pray to someone or something, we acknowledge the existence of a supreme being whom we do not see, but whom we recognize as being omniscient and omnipotent, and who is therefore able to hear our prayers and answer them.
Let me just say this very bluntly, Zerinus: you're wrong. If I ask you something, I don't have to believe that you are omniscient, or can hear everything. I just have to believe that you can hear me. So if the Church prays to Mary, we don't have to believe that she knows everything, but only that she knows our prayers. That does not require omniscience: only that God allows her to hear us so that she may pray for us. And I will prove further on that the saints and angels can indeed hear our prayers, God willing. Zerinus continues:
Prayer is always addressed to a deity. When we pray to Mary or the Saints, we elevate them to the position of the Deity; and that is sacrilege and wrong.
Catholic prayer is not always addressed to a deity. Biblical prayer is not always addressed to a deity. In a room with the Bible and a Catholic, Zerinus would be the only one addressing God alone in prayer!
But what's that that I just said? Biblical prayer is not only addressed to God? What am I saying? Well, prayer in the Bible happens simply when someone makes a solemn request. It is made to normal people, like Sarah, Abraham, and Lot. Look at the first five times the word 'pray' is used in the Bible:
Genesis 12:13 - “Say, I pray thee,” said Abraham to Sarah, “thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.”
Genesis 13:8-9 - “And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren. Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.”
Genesis 16:2 - “I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her,” said Sarah to Abraham.
Genesis 18:3 - “And [Abraham] said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:”
The same kind of prayer addressed to God in Gen. 18 was addressed to men in Gen. 12, 13, and 16. That usage doesn't change throughout the whole Bible: whether people make requests to God or men, it's called prayer either way. So when Zerinus says that prayer to somebody elevates them to the status of God, he's seriously misrepresenting the way the Bible talks about prayer. But when Catholics talk about 'prayer to Mary' or other saints, we only mean the kind of prayer prayed in those passages: we ask them to pray for us. We say, “St. Peter, I pray thee, pray for me.”
So the only objection, Zerinus, that you could possibly have to that, is that they cannot hear us when we pray to them, which – if true – simply means we are being silly when we pray to them. I will address this further down, but, Dear reader, I pray thee: realize at least that mistakenly thinking they can hear us is a far cry from making them into gods.
He continues:
Jesus set the pattern of how we should pray:
Matthew 6:
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
This model of prayer, established by the Lord Himself, informs us exactly how we should pray. It informs us, firstly, that God already knows what we have need of before we ask Him. Secondly, we address our petitions directly to Him, not to some intermediate “Saint” or Mary. We don’t say, “Our Saint which is in heaven”. We say, “Our Father which art in heaven”.
Well, here Jesus tells us to pray to the Father. So tell me something, Zerinus: does this mean we cannot pray to Jesus? “We don't say, 'Our Saint which is in heaven,' ” you've said. Do you pray, “Lord Jesus, which is in Heaven,” or, “Holy Spirit, which is in heaven”? If you do not, then change your ways, because Scripture would have us address some prayers to the Lord Jesus – St. Stephen, for example, prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59) when he was being stoned. But if you do pray to Jesus, as you should, then do not say that we should only pray “Our Father.”
Now let's let the Bible inform us about addressing the saints.
2 Samuel 1:
12 ...for Saul, and for Jonathan his son...were fallen by the sword. ...
17 And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son:
18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)
19 The beauty of Israel is slain upon thy high places: how are the mighty fallen! ...
24 Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul...
25 ...O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places.
26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
David directly addresses all of Israel and the slain Jonathan in the same passage. A Catholic would be very comfortable saying this; but Zerinus would worry, “Shouldn't I be addressing God alone in my lamentation?” Now this was a lamentation, not necessarily a prayer, but the principle that the saints in Heaven can be addressed is clear – and there is some evidence that it is a prayerful lament: first (in the KJV and other translations) it seems to be addressed to God – because it mentions “thy” high places, with no qualification – and then to the daughters of Israel – for he had taught the song to them per verse 18. But in vss. 25-26 he directs his lamentation to the slain Jonathan directly. And well he knew that this man would be praying against his murderers: for “the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground,” God had said when Abel was slain by his brother (Gen. 4:10), and the martyrs were seen later in Heaven crying out to God, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” (Rev. 6:10) Knowing then that Jonathan would be praying for justice, and fearless to address him himself, who will say that David could not have petitioned Jonathan for those very prayers? And if you will say so, Zerinus, I must ask you: why? Jonathan was praying for justice, and he could be solemnly addressed; why should these two things not be connected together?
Now this and other passages to be brought to light momentarily show clearly that the saints may be addressed in certain kinds of prayer. This was a (prayer of?) lamentation, and I will bring out four other examples of prayers of thanksgiving wherein the saints and angels are directly addressed. The burden is on Zerinus, then – who must admit that such prayers are acceptable, because they are straight from the Bible – to show in the Bible where it says that other kinds of prayers must be excluded. For the difference between the lament of David here, who says, “I grieve for thee, O Jonathan,” and the prayers of Catholics, who say, “Be mindful of me, O Saints,” is only a difference between two kinds of prayer. Who will say that the one must be avoided, and why?
Consider next Psalms 103:
20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
21 Bless ye the LORD, all ye his hosts; ye ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
Here David addresses all the heavenly host in his prayer of rejoicing. He does it again in Psalms 148:1-2.
Daniel 3:
58 O ye angels of the Lord, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. ...
82 O ye children of men, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. ...
86 O ye spirits and souls of the righteous, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever.
Here Azariah friend of Daniel addresses the angels, saints, even all the people of God. And this usage doesn't stop in the Old Testament.
Consider the New Testament Book of Revelation 18:
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen...
27 ...And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Here all of the men of the sea (or the angel speaking to John) are seen directly addressing the apostles and prophets in Heaven. A Catholic would be quite comfortable saying this; Zerinus, I am afraid, would think he could only address God.
Now all these prayers of men on earth show that the saints and angels may indeed be addressed when we pray. So Zerinus, who has directed us to the Word of God for the final judgment on this matter, has spelled the doom of his own doctrine. For the Master of this Universe has deemed it fit not only to have friendship with His Saints for Himself: but to share this fellowship with us, and He has shown this in His very Word so that the mouth of Zerinus might be shut.
But let us at least hear Zerinus out, for we will not ask him to close his mouth before he has finished. Thus he continues:
If you want to ask a Saint to pray for you, you ask him when he is still alive, not when he is dead! When he is dead, he is gone, and he can’t hear nor answer anyone’s prayer. I like what Ecclesiastes says about the dead:
Ecclesiastes 9:
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
He tries to drag in Ecclesiastes to support him in saying that the saints are ignorant of what is going on here on Earth. But the writer would strenuously object: he has not said that the saints are unable to see our affairs, but the dead he is speaking of “have [not] any more a reward;” whereas “there is a reward for the righteous.” (Psalms 58:11) And is the memory of the saints really forgotten? Or are they not, like the woman of Matthew 26:13, remembered even today?
Even this very passage of Ecclesiastes – when read in the light of the rest of God's revelation – tells us that the saints can indeed know our affairs: for he says that “to him that is joined to all the living there is hope,” and the saints are yet joined to the living, according to the words of the Lord: “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matt. 22:32) And St. Paul too tells us that we are joined to them that are already in Heaven: for he calls all the members of the Church 'saints' in Colossians 1:1-4, because God “hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light,” and “hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son... And he is the head of the body...” (Colossians 1:12, 13, 18) So we on earth and the saints in the light are members of the same body. Indeed, as St. Paul says elsewhere, “we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another,” (Romans 12:5) and “the members should have the same care one for another. ...[if] one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.” (1 Cor. 12:25-26)
St. Paul could make it no clearer that we, the living, are joined to the faithful departed: we are their members, and we ought to pray with them for the honor they have been given, just as we would pray with one another. Or else we may be saying to them, “I have no need of you,” contrary to 1 Cor. 12:21.
But Zerinus still has objections:
Once a person is dead, he is gone, and you don’t pray to him, petition him, or ask him any questions. That is called soothsaying, which was forbidden in the Old Testament scripture.
'Soothsaying' refers to conjuring spirits to tell the future. But was David conjuring Jonathan when he grieved to him before? Or was there any conjuring done in Rev. 18:20? And do we Catholics conjure our saints when we ask them merely to pray for us? Certainly not. Zerinus is just making up objections because he can find nothing against us in Scripture. He has come to deny fellowship with the saints, which is to his own loss, but he has succeeded only in discovering that soothsaying is condemned – which also the Catholic Church condemns, as she herself says, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, chapters 2115-2117.
Another excuse that they bring is that they don’t pray to them; they just ask them to intercede with God on their behalf; in the same way that we might ask a friend or a relative to pray for us. ... [but] when we ask our friends on earth to pray for us, we are not asking them to intercede on our behalf.
Indeed? St. Paul begs to differ with you.
1st Timothy 2:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The source of Zerinus' doubt concerning intercession is not Scripture. Something or someone else has influenced him to deny what Scripture clearly teaches: intercession is a form of prayer which is urged for all Christians. But he has another idea of intercession:
Intercession is a completely different concept in Christianity. According to the Bible, there is only one intercessor in heaven that acts between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. There is not any other:
1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Romans 8:
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermostthat come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Is it Jesus Christ alone then, who makes intercession for us?* 1 Tim. 2 does not say this; for we just saw how Paul said right before verse 5 that all men must make intercession. Jesus is the one mediator in the sense the He is the mediator of a new Covenant, as per Heb. 12:24, but this does not mean He is the only mediator in prayer.* For what then would we make of the angels? Zerinus says they are no mediators, they make no intercession for us. But see what Scripture (ESV) says of every unconverted man:
Job 33:
22 His soul draws near the pit, / and his life to those who bring death.
23 If there be for him an angel, / a mediator, one of the thousand, / to declare to man what is right for him,
24 and he is merciful to him, and says, / 'Deliver him from going down into the pit; / I have found a ransom;
25 let his flesh become fresh with youth; / let him return to the days of his youthful vigor';
26 then man prays to God, and he accepts him; / he sees his face with a shout of joy, / and [God] restores to man his righteousness.
Clearly, God has been merciful to each and every one of us in part because the angels have made intercession for us to God. Zerinus: I recommend you be grateful, and spurn them not, by denying their involvement, or by saying that they have no intercessory role at all. For Jesus is NOT the only one to make intercession for us.* Remember: Paul urged 'all men' to take up the role of intercessor. And remember the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of theSpirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Zerinus needs to learn who is making the excuses. He has made up a doctrine, that only Jesus Christ is intercessor, and this doctrine has no basis in Scripture.* All men everywhere are to make intercession: St. Paul says it is 'first of all' in the role of a Christian: who will say that the Saints have been put out of this role and no longer pray for us or make intercession? It is certainly no instruction of the Scriptures. For this is what the Scriptures say: “the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” The saints in Heaven fall down before God on our behalf!!! Will you yet spurn them, and say they have set aside the role of prayer???? There can be no greater mockery!!!!
Scripture tells us: “joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, who need no repentance.” (Luke 15:7) Will you say that they are thus overjoyed, when yet they were never concerned, and never said the slightest prayer for our conversion, as you say?
And consider this. Luke 15:6-7 says of the man in this passage: “when he [had] come... home, he calle[d] together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me;” and “likewise joy shall be in heaven”. Who then are the friends and neighbors who he calls upon to rejoice? Those who rejoiced were the saints and angels; of whom Christ says in this same context, “they may receive you into everlasting habitations.” (Luke 16:9) The man called upon the saints to rejoice with him. When have you yet done so, Zerinus? I have. I praise God in His angels and saints every day for the majestic miracle of salvation which He has given to me. I will pray also that some day you may join me.
Our friends are people whom we can see, and whom we can talk to and know that they can hear us. Prayer is an act of faith. It is an appeal to a supernatural being whom we do not see, but whom we believe in faith to be able to see and hear, and answer our prayer.
Well, Zerimus, as I just showed, Scripture calls the Saints our friends. “Make to yourselves friends,” Christ exhorts us, who “may receive you into everlasting habitations,” (Luke 16:9) as only a Saint in Heaven can do. These friends the Saints, our Lord repeatedly says in this and the parables before it in chapter 15, are to be called upon, as you would call upon any other friend.
The only real objection to prayer to the Saints, as I said earlier, is that they cannot hear us, and this is finally what you have brought up. All the other things were mere smokescreens, but this latter is truly based only in ignorance. You say we do not see the Saints and angels; and perhaps this is so. But this did not stop St. Paul from exhorting us “in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels,” (1 Tim. 5:21) and Scripture still says concerning the Saints, “we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses.” (Heb. 12:1) They are so aware of our prayers that they both receive them and present them to God, according to Rev. 5:8, quoted earlier. And if they cannot hear our prayers at all, why has Scripture in so many places shown men everywhere praying to the Saints? would it not be useless? But as Scripture says, “they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” (1 Cor. 10:11)
So the Saints can hear your prayers, if you just direct them to them; you can be confident of this because, 'though absent in the flesh,' they are “with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.” (Colossians 2:5)
You make only one more objection, Zerinus:
I don’t know of any instance in the scriptures where one is supposed to appeal to any other being in heaven than the supreme, omnipotent God for assistance. ... There is only one Intercessor and object of faith mentioned in the Bible, and that is Jesus Christ. There is not one passage in the Bible that mentions, or implies, another.
I have shown you dozens of Scriptures which show you that the Saints may be prayed to, and it is clear why one should desire to do so: for “[t]he effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much,” (James 5:16) and who would not want to have fellowship with those whom Scripture calls our friends and co-citizens of the city of God? But I exhort you to re-read the Book of Hebrews chapters 11-12. For after saying that the Saints surround us as examples for our walk in the Faith, it says that we are now undergoing tribulation and chastisement. And what does the author encourage us to do in the face of these troubling times, but appeal to God in His angels and Saints? “Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;” he says, referring to prayers of supplication, such as in Exodus 17:11-13, for “ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:12, 22-24)
When we supplicate God in the face of tribulation, we are to think, not of He alone, but of all they who are present with Him. We are to lift our hands “unto the city of the living God...an innumerable company of angels...the general assembly and church of the firstborn...the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus,” and not to God alone as you have said. Where it says “ye are come,” etc. refers to coming in prayer, and it is quite expressly stated that this is not to God alone but to all the Saints and Angels with Him.
God bless you, Zerinus, and I pray that you will come to see this part of the message of the Gospel, which is spelled out so clearly, but has been muddled by your non-Catholic bias.
______________________
* I have said that the Lord Jesus is not the only mediator or intercessor in the sense His mediation and intercession does not exclude other intercessors, and I interpreted His name 'One Mediator' in 1 Tim. 2:5 as a reference to His mediating the New Covenant, which He indeed accomplished by Himself. But there is another sense in which you could say that He is the one intercessor: because we are members of His body, all intercession or prayer that we make is based in Him, so one could say, that every time a Christian makes intercession or prays, it is Christ who does so, and thus Christ is the only one who does these things even though – and precisely because – all the Saints do so in Him.
Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid explores this issue in depth and with great skill in his book, "Any Friend of God's is a Friend of Mine." I urge my readers to pick it up and read it, if you want to explore this issue more deeply.
